I can answer the first question...Every seed from a seed pod will produce a DIFFERENT dahlia. That is because of the octoploid genetics. Each seed differs according to which of the mothers genetics was in that particular seed and which particular pollen grain off the bees knees brushed up against it. And remember that in the bees visit to that particular plant each grain of pollen might have different pieces of the octoploid genetics.
Several years ago I used seeds frm Colorado Classic to plant out. Nearly all of them had similar form to Colorado Classic but they were a wide variety of colors..from my Creme Brulee to Pinks and Purples and blends of all the above.. Some were short like Creme Brulee and some were between 5 and 6 feet tall , but most were around 3.5-4'.
teddahlia Oct 20, 2019 7:02 PM PDT
Name: Ted Oregon We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
So looking around for info Fairway Spur it says 1996 from the UK. Is that considered old? 1996 would be old.
The topic about dahlia viability is interesting. In my mind I see a chart like a family tree for a dahlia with every single dahlia of a variety - say Fairway Spur - descending from a single tuber from a single seed. No matter how it tubers - cuttings or naturally - they all have the exact same DNA.
One expects every tuber to have the exact same DNA forever. However, occasionally a tuber will be the victim of cosmic ray or a chemical and will LOSE a little bit of the DNA. When there are 8 genes for trait and one of those 8 genes is lost, another different gene takes over. Example:Instead of an orange flower it turns to lavender as it lost the orange gene. Most of the time you cannot tell the difference between the plant that lost some DNA and the one that did not. The only difference may be that the one that did not lose DNA grows better.
When you collect a pod of seeds from a dahlia, will they all produce the same dahlia? Or will different seeds (from the same pod) produce different dahlias?
In the seedpod there could be 20 or so seeds that sprout. Each seed will have been pollinated by a bee and most all of them will have gotten their pollen from a different flower. So all of the seeds will have the mother plants DNA but all 20 of the seedlings could have different fathers. So, all the seedlings would look a bit like the mother and bit like the different fathers. Even if all of the seeds were pollinated by the same pollen from a flower, they would not be identical for other reasons.
So my question is - If you have weak stock of Show n Tell, won't all the stock be weak? YES
teddahlia Oct 20, 2019 7:59 PM PDT
Name: Ted Oregon We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Part of my reply disappeared.
Or do some tubers produce genetically inferior tubers?
Some stock has mutated by losing bits of DNA and it would produce bad stock. Someone probably has some good stock that did not mutate. Dutch tubers are not selected to rogue out weak stock. My Show-N-Tell is probably original stock from a club member who grew it for years. I have no idea who gave it to the club. Myrtle Bloomfield who died at 103, a couple of years ago, grew some classic dahlias from original stock and if you could get it from her, you knew it would be good. She had Magic Moment, a classic dahlia, that was just wonderful.
sylviap Oct 21, 2019 10:20 AM PDT
Name: Sylvia West Sacramento, CA Zone 9b
So a sport? Looking around it says caused by a change genetic mutation?
Thanks for the info regarding dahlias. Always learning.
blown_dry Oct 21, 2019 1:27 PM PDT
Name: Amanda CA Redwood Coast - Zone 9b DahliaAddict.com
It appears to me that if it's a change to the bloom's appearance people tend to use the term 'sport' and if the plant loses vigor or has lost the a closed center they tend to say it's 'broken down' or 'gone open center' but it's all referring to genetic mutation. With each seed the species has a fresh start by spinning the genetic wheel. Some will be worse than the parents, but others may be better.
teddahlia Oct 21, 2019 4:47 PM PDT
Name: Ted Oregon We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
With dahlias, the plants are octaploid meaning they have 8 genes for each trait. People have two. If one of the eight genes is damaged, one of the others takes over. This can be a big change or literally no change if it had several of the same genes for that trait. If for example a gene changing the base color from a yellow version to a white version, changes a red flower from red to purple. Cornel sported from red to the purple Ivanetti. It is possible that Ivanetti could again sport to white.
What if the genes for chlorophyll production mutate. Will the plant be healthier or less healthy? Probably less healthy. Do flowers remain the same, genetically over the years? They can but if you do not identify negative sported stock, you may end up with all mutated stock.
blown_dry Oct 21, 2019 6:30 PM PDT
Name: Amanda CA Redwood Coast - Zone 9b DahliaAddict.com
Speaking of sports, this poor, battered, late-season My Hero was half Nick Sr.
sylviap Oct 21, 2019 9:16 PM PDT
Name: Sylvia West Sacramento, CA Zone 9b
Is Nick Sr a parent?
blown_dry Oct 22, 2019 10:59 AM PDT
Name: Amanda CA Redwood Coast - Zone 9b DahliaAddict.com
My Hero is a sport of Nick Sr. I believe the story is that it is propagated from one branch that sported purple. 'My Hero' is an accolade of the person 'Nick Sr' is named for. :)
sylviap Oct 22, 2019 11:12 AM PDT
Name: Sylvia West Sacramento, CA Zone 9b
I noticed this week that one or two blooms are redder than they were earlier in the season.
teddahlia Oct 22, 2019 12:19 PM PDT
Name: Ted Oregon We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Color changes late in the season. Dr Virginia Walbot of Stanford had her students do some color experiments concerning red pigment. Some of it is dependent upon intense sunlight to form properly. In the late season there is less sun and less red pigment on those varieties. Purple is also an anthocyanin pigment.
sylviap Oct 22, 2019 1:52 PM PDT
Name: Sylvia West Sacramento, CA Zone 9b
Yesterday when I was searching for info on dahlias, I ran across the Stanford Dahlia project. One of the subcategories was counting florets on dahlias to determine if the number was in the Fibonacci sequence. Didn't read it all, but it looks like they have a lot of research on dahlias.
drewtheflorist Oct 23, 2019 3:43 PM PDT
Name: Drew the Florist 14 miles S E of Pittsburgh
Amanda, was My Hero worth 40 bucks ?
teddahlia Oct 23, 2019 5:53 PM PDT
Name: Ted Oregon We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Was Edna C. worth the $75.00 I heard it cost when it was introduced?(going from memory and it may have been a bit less). Jersey Beauty was $25.00 in the 1920s when that would be several hundred dollars now. The market sets the price in most cases. They sold all of the 2,000+ tubers of My Hero that that they had.
blown_dry Oct 23, 2019 7:31 PM PDT
Name: Amanda CA Redwood Coast - Zone 9b DahliaAddict.com
I would say, yes, if the picture is something you look at and think, yes, I would pay $40 for that. It's still pumping out flowers right now and it produced blooms like the marketing pics. It's not one of those 'it' varieties where you maybe get one bloom or none that look like the marketing.
CMCramer Oct 27, 2019 3:48 PM PDT
Name: CMCramer Rochester, NY
Not bad for late October in Rochester NY!
teddahlia Oct 29, 2019 9:48 AM PDT
Name: Ted Oregon We enjoy breeding new dahlias!
Wildwood Marie: This one made a very nice tuber clump in our garden. It is one of the best waterlilies and is a relatively old variety from 1993 originated in the small town of Sequim by Edward M. Papierski. It is a strong grower and has quite a few flowers. I even collected some seeds from it.
SteveM Oct 29, 2019 7:32 PM PDT
Name: Steve San Diego Commercial cut flower grower
CMCramer wrote:Not bad for late October in Rochester NY!
Nice display! How did you get those centers in NY this time of year?
CMCramer Oct 31, 2019 5:27 AM PDT
Name: CMCramer Rochester, NY
SteveM wrote:
Nice display! How did you get those centers in NY this time of year?
Clean Livin' I guess!
I must confess I got the dates of the photo mixed up - it was taken Oct 10 my wife tells me, not 'late October.' But still.....
jj85 Nov 2, 2019 10:50 AM PDT
Name: JJ Willamette Valley // Oregon
Lakeview Storm was my favorite bloom this season! It wasn't terribly productive, maybe because it was shaded out by it's neighbors...? Going to give it a prime location next season. Did anyone else grow it? If so, how would you rate performance?
